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Futuro de Nunu

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Futuro de Nunu

Mensagem por ArthasReturn em 25/9/2010, 22:34

As an avid Nunu player I just wanted to know if there are any plans to make Nunu a viable and fun to play Champion for mid-to-high ELO matches on Summoner's Rift. This post contains several arguments why I think Nunu has problems now and how they can be solved. Of course you should not just take the following claims for granted (although the 1300+ upvotes strongly indicate that most players agree), I'd just really wish for someone of the RIOT balance department to play a few mid-to-high ELO matches on Summoner's Rift as Nunu to see what I mean.

I've also played a lot of Twisted Treeline matches and think he's doing okay on this 3vs3 map (as long as your teammates can grasp the concept of baiting, which is not always the case when solo queuing). This is due to the many brushes and the decreased burst damage and fewer interrupts of the enemy team.



Overview: First there's a description of why Nunu has a problem in mid-to-high ELO, then there's a list of possible solutions, followed by a list of other improvement ideas for Nunu, a bug section and a list of all the hardcounters to Absolute Zero. At the end there's also a detailed proposal of changes in changelog form.



Please correct me if I'm wong, but I think Nunu's most obvious weakness is the uselessness of his Ultimate in mid-to-high ELO matches on Summoner's Rift:

The sheer amout of CC (Silences/Stuns/Knockbacks/Knockups/Fears/Taunts) of a competent enemy 5-man team will never let the Ultimate channel for even half the time, not even if Nunu has got a charged Banshee's Veil whose Shield usually gets canceled by the enemies' AoE abilities before he can even start to channel. To understand what I mean, please consider that currently 33 of all 59 Champions have an innate hardcounter (= Interrupt) to Nunu's Ultimate. Six of those Champions even have 2 abilities that can interrupt Absolute Zero and Blitzcrank has 3(!) abilities that interrupt. From my experience 3 of 5 enemy players can (almost) instantly interrupt Nunu's Ultimate and therefore make it useless with just 1 click.

If the Ultimate does channel for a long 3 seconds there is probably no one left inside to take damage. That's because everyone with Flash or an Escape ability can simply avoid it without a hint for the Nunu player to let it off sooner. From my experience 2 of 5 enemy players have either Flash or an Escape ability, making Nunu's Ultimate useless against them.

Some champions do not even need to Flash away or Escape: Everyone with a charged Banshee's Veil, a charged Zhonya's Ring or Sivir with her Spell Shield take 0 damage from Nunu's Ultimate. That's because the Shields are not "removed" by the Slow effect during the channel time. Other AoE Ultimates like Crowstorm, Death Lotus, Tremors, Glacial Storm, Tibbers, Cannon Barrage and Curse of the Sad Mummy at least deal partial damage. Nunu's Ultimate is one of the very vew AoE Ultimates (others being Requiem, Trueshot Barrage and perhaps Soul Shackles) that can be completely absorbed by a Shield. From my experience at least 2 enemy players have some kind of defensive ability, making Nunu's Ultimate useless or very weak against them.

There are only 11(!) Champions that do not have anything to hardcounter Absolute Zero (unless they can burst Nunu to death in under 3 seconds or have Flash): Mordekaiser, Ryze, Teemo, Nasus, Mundo, Twitch, Zilean, Karthus, Kog'Maw, Miss Fortune and Nunu


Solutions?

A simple solution would be a lower channel time (2 seconds, even with an overall damage reduction by 20% or an AP ratio nerf) could solve part of this balance problem.

Another solution to limit the amount of hardcounters would be to add a "Snow Blindness" effect to AZ where Nunu becomes stealthed to those inside his ice storm. Only those outside with long-range Interrupts or those with AoE Interrupts or teams with Oracle's Elixir can interrupt him.

Another suggestion would be that if an enemy has Nunu's Ice Blast debuff and gets caught in Nunu's Ultimate then he will be Snared and/or Silenced as long as the Ice Blast debuff and Ultimate debuff are still on him.

Another solution (one that would kill two birds with one stone) would be to make Consume give Nunu a 4 second Spell Shield that blocks the next hostile ability. This would give Consume a much needed boost to its viability late game and furthermore provide Nunu with a method of using Absolute Zero with out being stunned right away.

Another solution could be to make Stuns not interrupt Absolute Zero. There would still be more than enough Silences, Fears, Taunts, Knockbacks and Knockups to hardcounter it.

Every nerf to Flash indirectly buffs Nunu's Ultimate. However, at least 30% of all players still use it regularly.



Other improvement ideas:

Consume is useful in the early game, especially when Jungling, but imho it's a relatively useless skill later on where teamfights decide the game. I think Consume should also give Nunu a small, temporary increase in survivability. This would synergize well with him being a melee caster and getting focussed during his Ultimate. I think that a bonus of +4 armor and +4 magic resistance per skill level for 15 seconds would make this skill and Nunu more useful later in the game. I think he's the only "tank" (according to Game Database) that does not have an ability that somehow decreases damage taken! Alternatively the ability could also be made useful in the teamfights by making it usable on other objects. The only objects that Nunu can use the ability on now are either Rally wards (which no one takes anymore) or Heimerdinger's turrets. Imho Consume should not be usable on enemy Champions, not even with strong damage reduction, because it would most probably still be too strong and hard to balance. How about being able to Consume Debuffs on allies? This unique ability would greatly enhance his support role and Consume would become very useful in teamfights.

Perhaps Consume's damage should also scale more linearly: 500 damage at level 1 and only +100 damage for each further skill level is not really worth leveling up. Super creeps get damaged for about 1/5th of their health by a fully levelled Consume! Perhaps it should also include AP on its damage part, not only the heal part. Additionally it would be nice to get a small gold bonus upon killing creeps with Consume. Nunu is quite poor in comparison to other Champions because he's got no "farm" skill and his autoattack is really weak.

I'd also really like a slightly faster Ice Blast missile speed as it's really easy to Flash-dodge now. Enemies with Ghost and a speed ability can almost outrun it.

Since Janna can buff a turret, why can't Nunu use Blood Boil on turrets? This would make the recently changed Blood Boil more useful again when being solo on a lane.

Nunu's passive ability is quite useless compared to all other passives. It's okay in the beginning (unless you're facing strong ranged Champions) but it does not scale with level, it's useless if you want your lane enemies to push to prepare a gank, it does not help in teamfights and it has no real synergy with Nunu. He's a Champion specializing in slows, so why not give him a passive aura that slightly (6%; perhaps scaling with level) increases the enemies cooldowns? I'd call it "Brain Freeze".

Nunu has a very low base attack speed and base attack damage, especially for a melee Champion. Furthermore he has the lowest attack speed increase per level of all Champions. Even Soraka has more DPS at level 18 than Nunu. Buffing these stats might make a DPS Nunu build viable.

Nunu has several high AP ratios. However, in above-average Elo matches Nunu simply can not buy AP items because he must buy tank items to survive. He always has to buy an expensive Banshee's Veil and then also armor items because he has no defensive ability and no reliable heal. Increasing Nunu's innate survivability as a melee Champion, either through stat increases or improved abilities, would help a lot.



List of bugs that should be eliminated:

When Absolute Zero gets interrupted very quickly the cooldown timer seems to be incorrectly showing the ability as ready.

When Knockback abilities like Tristana's Buster Shot, Alistar's Headbutt interrupt Absolute Zero, the partial damage it deals is done around Nunu's new position after being knocked back. Is this intended?

Singed's Fling does interrupt Absolute Zero, however sometimes it only stops the animation of the Ultimate, resulting in confused enemies once they get hit by it.

Very rarely Absolute Zero does not deal any damage. However, I have not found a way to reproduce this yet, but it may have to do with very late interrupts (at 2.8 to 3 seconds channel time), being in brush or receiving 2 interrupts at once.

In the game database Nunu is listed as a "farmer". This is simply not true. Consume has an initial cooldown of 18 seconds and can only be used on 1 minion, thus hardly qualifies as a farming skill. The statistics on lolbase.net show that he is currently amongst the poorest Champions. Thus, relative to other Champions, Nunu is rather poor and can usually not afford expensive items (Zhonya's Ring etc.).

Leveling up a skill after Nunu has his "free spell" passive ability ready results in that skill not being usable for free.

Nunu's passive ability allows him to cast a free spell every 7 hits. If you get the free spell (but do not use it yet) and after that hit an enemy 6 times, then use your free spell and hit the enemy 1 more time you get the free spell again. This is somehow advantageous to Nunu players, still I regard it as a bug.

It's possible to Blood Boil Wards. This is completely overpowered and gamebreaking and should be fixed immediately. What? You've never been stared to death by a Blood Boiled Ward!? Lucky you!

When using Absolute Zero inside a brush its visual effect can not be seen outside, except for the ice crystals at the slowed enemies' feet. At higher ELO this bug is Nunu's only chance of getting a somewhat successful Ultimate, but I think that every Champion should be revealed inside a brush if he actively affects (allied and enemy) Champions outside, even if he does not deal damage.

When using Absolute Zero inside the enemy's tower range Nunu does not get attacked by the tower as long as he deals no damage. This is also true for other non-damaging abilities, yet I think that also the use of non-damaging abilities on an enemy inside the tower range should make a tower focus the attacking Champion.


The full list of hardcounters to Nunu's Ultimate is:

Hardcounters #1: Champions who can interrupt it (36/60):

Udyr
Taric
Ashe
Rammus (2x)
Poppy
Veigar
Alistar (2x)
Anivia
Pantheon
Shaco
Jax
Sion
Fiddlesticks (2x)
Kassadin
Soraka
Singed
Evelynn
Annie
Tristana
Heimerdinger
Warwick
Blitzcrank (3x !!!)
Cho'Gath (2x)
Shen
Amumu
Malphite
Twisted Fate
Kennen
Garen
Malzahar (2x)
Xin Zhao
Galio
Urgot
Gragas
Janna (2x)
Sona
Every player or team with enough burst damage to kill Nunu in under 3 seconds.


Hardcounters #2: Champions who can avoid all damage from it (10/59 + 4 Champion Abilities + 2 items):

Sivir
Tryndamere
Poppy
Shaco
Yi
Vladimir
Kayle
Every team with a Knockback Ability (Gragas, Janna, Tristana)
Everyone with Kayle's Shield
Everyone with a charged Banshee's Veil
Everyone with a charged Zhonya's Ring


Hardcounters #3: Champions who can easily escape it (20/60 + 1 Summoner Spell + 1 item):

Katarina
Tryndamere
Shaco
Gragas
Tristana
Jax
Yi
Ezreal
Kassadin
Gangplank
Janna
Corki
Shen
Malphite
Nidalee (in Cougar form)
Kennen
Garen
Akali
Olaf
Xin Zhao
Everyone with Flash
Every team with Shurelya's Reverie


Softcounters: Champions who can drastically reduce damage taken by the Ultimate (17/60 + 6 Champion Abilities):

Udyr
Rammus
Poppy
Mordekaiser
Kassadin
Alistar
Sion
Annie
Shen
Garen
Gragas
Yi
Katarina
Xin
Galio
Kennen
Urgot
Every team with Sona's Perseverance Area Buff
Everyone with Morgana's Shield
Everyone with Janna's Shield
Everyone with Shen's Shield
Everyone with Mordekaiser's Buff
Everyone with Galio's Bulwark Buff


Now the list of Champions who do not have any hardcounters to Nunu's Ultimate (if they do not have Flash) (11/60):

Mordekaiser
Teemo
Ryze
Nasus
Mundo
Twitch
Zilean
Karthus
Kog'Maw
Miss Fortune
Nunu



Detailed proposal of changes in changelog form:

Perhaps a clearly defined list of what needs to be done with Nunu would help the balance team:

First, Ice Blast should become more useful overall. Since movement speed Slows are the lowest form of CC and furthermore available through two items (which can result in other, non-slowing Champions being better at chasing than Nunu, e.g. Vladimir with a Rylai's Scepter or Tristana with a Frozen Mallet), its range, missile speed and cast time needs to improve a bit. Moreover, the attack speed Slow effect needs to be increased to make this ability more unique and more useful in teamfights.


Ice Blast
attack speed slow changed to 20/25/30/35/40% from 25%.
range increased to 600 from 550.
missile speed slightly increased.
cast time slightly reduced.



Next, Blood Boil should be made worth leveling up (which it was before the change). As of now it's good to have 1 point in it but the increases in movement speed are not linear enough and attack speed is mostly useless on Nunu. It should also be made to be more useful when there are no allies around, i.e. last longer when only cast on self to allow for better Jungling and it should probably be usable on turrets, just like Janna's Buff. Overall, its effectiveness should be made a bit weaker (because, honestly, on some DPS Champs it's borderline OP) but its duration a bit longer because otherwise Nunu must always be the DPS carry's "buff-bot" and constantly follow him around.

Blood Boil
mana cost changed to 40/45/50/55/60 from 50.
duration and cooldown changed to 15/17/19/21/23 seconds from 15 seconds.
movement speed increase changed to 10/12/14/16/18% from 11/12.5/13/14.5/15%.
attack speed increase lowered to 20/25/30/45/50% from 25/35/45/55/65%.
if cast only on self the duration is 140%.
can now be used on turrets for half its attack speed increase effect.



Then Consume needs to be made worth leveling up. There is absolutely no incentive to do that now because the cooldown only gets minimally lower by 2 seconds and the damage only increases by 100 with each levelup. Leveling Ice Blast instead actually helps your Jungling just as much as leveling Consume and makes ganking much easier. Furthermore it really, really needs to do something useful when there are no creeps around!

Consume
mana cost changed to 50/55/60/65/70 from 60.
damage now has an AP ratio of 1.0.
cast time slightly reduced.
AND
(new passive)
after use, increases armor and magic resistance by 5/10/15/20/25 for 5/6/7/8/9/10 seconds.
OR
each consumed minion permanently increases Nunu's (AP or AD or magic resistance) by 1 (max. 6/14/24/40/60).
OR
After use, Nunu gains a Spell Shield for 5 seconds that blocks the next hostile ability.
OR
Nunu can now Consume Debuffs on allied players (without dealing damage).



Then Absolute Zero needs to be made more reliable and weaker against enemy teams that have few interrupts or are not as coordinated.

Absolute Zero
channel duration lowered to 2 seconds from 3 seconds.
damage lowered to 550/750/950 from 625/875/1125.
AP ratio lowered to 1.5 from 2.5.
if used in brush the animation is now visible outside of the brush.



Nunu's passive is okay as long as he needs it. With the low mana costs on Blood Boil and Consume and Absolute Zero it has very low synergy now. The improvements above would help a bit so that it could stay the same.
I'd also like to let Nunu get some Magic Resistance per levelup, as do most melee Champions (especially when they have very few ranged abilities).
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=59339

ArthasReturn
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Re: Futuro de Nunu

Mensagem por kelvarthas em 28/9/2010, 17:17

oO alguem traduz plz

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Re: Futuro de Nunu

Mensagem por AninhaHell em 29/9/2010, 07:59

pra que esse topico

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Re: Futuro de Nunu

Mensagem por guz em 29/9/2010, 08:13

olha se fosse em português eu leria tudo mas em inglês????

vá pra **** que pariu

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Re: Futuro de Nunu

Mensagem por WhillowNeD em 29/9/2010, 09:08

Como tenho raiva de posts em inglês, por mais que eu saiba "/
Ctrl +c, ctrl+v = %$#!#¨%$#

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Re: Futuro de Nunu

Mensagem por AninhaHell em 29/9/2010, 09:09

eu sei ingles...mais o topico é inutil mesmo assim

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Re: Futuro de Nunu

Mensagem por guz em 29/9/2010, 09:57

tá mas pelo que entendi mesmo sendo um asno em inglês... é que o cara tá reclamando sobre o ultimate do nunu é isso?

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Re: Futuro de Nunu

Mensagem por Sbbrubles em 29/9/2010, 10:04

Vdd...
Tinha q posta isso direto pra Riot...
Razz
lol!

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Re: Futuro de Nunu

Mensagem por Lord Gava em 29/9/2010, 10:17

perdi tempo traduzindo, pq naum sei quase nada de ingles...
mas então.... pelo q percebi são apenas especulações de upgrade!!!

sempre quando um heroi naum esta sendo muito utilizado pelos jogadores a riot da uma ajudinha!! e é o q parece..... mas ainda concordo com a Aninha o topico é meio q inutil.....

Agente agradece os posts do pessoal, ficamos mais atualizados para o game.... mas antes de colocar no forum faz o favor de traduzir os textos...quase ninguem entende os posts em ingles.

Abraço

Lord Gava
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Re: Futuro de Nunu

Mensagem por Sbbrubles em 29/9/2010, 10:23

Mano no geral ele ta falando que todas as skills do nunu sao "defeituosas" de alguma maneira.... E da ideias de mudanças uteis para o champ...
Mas num adianta nada posta isso aki...
lol!

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Re: Futuro de Nunu

Mensagem por Conteúdo patrocinado Hoje à(s) 12:37


Conteúdo patrocinado


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